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[–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 36 points37 points  (5 children)

It's both. The Web did definitely enable Jonah to get The Magnus Archives off the ground, and completing a ritual successfully to get the Fears fully instantiated in a world so it could then move on to colonizing other worlds was the point. But it's the web, of course it doesn't do it's own ritual, that would be passé. It's got to manipulate another fear into being its pawn, and we learn about that process in 200. But moving on is not really a ritual like the others, it's more like a chess move.

The Watchers Crown is something Jonah made up, it wasn't like it came fully formed from the eye, any more than any of the other rituals, including The Magnus Archives itself as successfully orchestrated.

Also the tapes are part of the way the fears moved from the post apocalypse world on to the other worlds, but they don't seem to have been absolutely necessary for the ritual in 160 (The Magnus Archives) -- that was more about Jon being marked by a critical mass of fears and then invoking the eye. So you know, that's a reason it was the Eye's ritual. And you know, the eye is indeed in office of place in the apocalypse, which all the avatars acknowledge and that's why Jon's needed for Annabelle to get the end of her plan executed.

Also you're right, the Web didn't want to world to stay as it was (evidently, it went through a bunch of trouble hand holding Jonah) and that was only ever Peter's speculation. Which he admits when he says it.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

In my opinion 160 wasn't the entire ritual, it was just the beginning of its final stage. The ritual actually "concluded" (ie all of the ultimate aims of its orchestration) in 200.

[–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 12 points13 points  (3 children)

... I think that's sort of splitting hairs. To me that's less a ritual and more the final execution of its plan. But what's a ritual, I suppose. That certainly didn't really involve invocations or what not. There's a hole, they build a bridge, untether from this world, go through. That's different from the pomp and circumstance of the 160 ritual.

There's also what the functions of rituals is supposed to be, which was to take the fears from beside reality where they were into full instantiation in the prime Magnus verse. The web's list innovation puts them back outside another universe. So it doesn't have quite the same ... Metaphysical structure or goal.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

That's just Robert Smirkes definition of what a ritual is. The Great Twisting seemed like it was specifically focused on manifesting The Distortion in a clearer fashion than The Spiral itself, as if they understood that fully manifesting The Spiral wasnt possible and wanted to pull a more intentional version of the Watchers Crown's empowering of Magnus.

That being said, I think Rituals can have more fluid goals than just being "bring into real world". The Magnus Archives end result was propagating the Fear Entities across a multiverse, so it enabled the same very broad goal of increasing their food supply.

Also you're probably right about it being splitting hairs. Basically I feel like the Webs role in The Change is sometimes downplayed a bit.

[–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I mean there were other people than the Distortion involved (eg Gabriel), and no, I think it was about the Distortion's plan to bring the Spiral into full existence in the TMA world. What made you think it didn't think bringing the Spiral through was possible? It's part of the spiral.

That's your interpretation of the goal of The Magnus Archives, there's nothing in the show to say that The Magnus Archives isn't the 160 ritual and propagating the fears to multiple universes isn't just what the Web wants to do since it's the only one that can want things. When Jonny reveal that he's thinking of The Magnus Archives as the name of a ritual, it seemed like he was talking about that ritual.

I don't agree that the Web's role is downplayed, since I've been on the "here's the list of all the hoops the Web jumped through" side of many conversations. It was also a huge topic of conversation when the show was wrapping up.

[–]Taoiseach 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Of course the Web's role is downplayed. The Web is the one downplaying it. It's the final big reveal of the story because the Web took such pains to keep its involvement in the Eye's ritual secret.

The entire point of the Web is to work through proxies, to avoid the risk of personal action, to manipulate others into doing the Web's bidding of their own volition (insofar as "volition" is a meaningful concept). The Web would never do for itself what it could make someone else do for it. That includes rituals. The onus of the Watcher's Crown rests solely on the Eye by design, and the Web works hard to conceal that the Eye's ritual works directly to the Web's benefit.

[–]MothmanNFTThe Web 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I like to think that The Podcast is the Web's ritual.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I mean, that is kind of what this pov implies. The Webs ritual was introducing itself into our world instead of the TMA world. ooo spooky meta

[–]PotatoMaster999 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Honestly same. Or at least, i thought the podcast was from the webs perspective

[–]Gines_Murciano 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Main reason? The ritual end result was the eye "ruling" over the other fears. And both main players (John and Jonah) of the ritual were of the eye. If Annabelle had sended the statement I would consider it to be a web ritual.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

This assumes the ritual formally ended in 160 and not 200

[–]Gines_Murciano 7 points8 points  (1 child)

That's a huge stretch. The purpose of the rituals is to bring the fears into the world, and that happened at 160. Jonah designed the ritual to do something, and it did it, therefore ritual was completed.

Unless the web can put ideas into one of the strongest avatars mind, which is not something we have ever seen it do, it likes to puppet people without controlling their minds, the ritual was thought out and put in practice by Jonah, therefore the ritual is from the eye.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Actually that isnt quite universal. By all accounts the Great Twisting was never actually intended to summon the Spiral and instead seemed to mostly empower The Distortion specifically, apotheosising him into a becoming that would be impossible in an unaltered universe. Not to mention that in MAG 200 The Fears are propagated through the multiverse, which was A: The Webs goal all along and B: still technically satisfied that definition of a ritual.

Also The Web is perfectly capable of manipulating people without doing mind control. It is practically stated verbatim in TMA 196 and 197 that Annabelle Cane directly orchestrated the events of the entire series.
Also of note that Jonah got the idea for the ritual from Gertrude, who spent her entire career being manipulated by The Web via Emma Harvey, and the first step of the Ritual (Jon being marked by the Web) happened long before Jonah Magnus thought of it.

[–]UrbenmythNot!Them 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Personally, I think its fitting that the "web's ritual" isn't the Web Ritual.

The web's ritual is the Eye Ritual, exploited to its own ends. Such is the nature of the Web- it by its nature works in the shadows and though catspaws rather then taking centre stage.

Whatever the Web Ritual is, we'll never see it. It's not in its nature to put its skin in the game that way- it finds some other guy to take the risk while they take the reward.

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well no because the web had to do so many things to make the eye do its ritual then once it got what it wanted it reversed it. The webs ritual we never entirely saw but it stood on its own.

[–]The_Mullet_boyThe Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see the Ritual that make The Change as a Eye Ritual, but the Magnus Archives Tapes are a Web Ritual taking place.

[–]Enough_Surprise2444 0 points1 point  (18 children)

I think that the webs control goes even deeper It caused the ritual but it’s very much the eyes It’s using the ritual for its gain but it’s still the eyes ritual.

In the way that the world changes, it changes to suit the eye, even if the web was behind everything

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (17 children)

Sure, and then the apocalypse was reversed by the Eye.

[–]Enough_Surprise2444 0 points1 point  (16 children)

It wasn’t reversed, the entities were moved, and they were moved by the eye because the eye controlled the new world. That’s why the web needed jon to drive them into the tear between dimensions, and that’s why jon also had the choice to let all the fears die in the world and force them to stay

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (15 children)

The eye is canonically incapable of doing anything intentionally whatsoever, the Eye didn't "move" anything. The removal happened because the linchpin of the ritual was destroyed. if the Eye was capable of having a will, it would have happened against it.

[–]Enough_Surprise2444 0 points1 point  (14 children)

By jon, manipulate or not the actions were carried out by Jon as an avatar of the eye In the same way that the eye can’t consciously kill someone but jon can direct it’s gaze to do so And the eye can do stuff, just not as a brain or out of intelligence, it can still spasm like a muscle

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (13 children)

Actually no, Jon had no active role whatsoever. Jon was stabbed by Martin and died, that's what caused the Entities to be dragged through the gap in reality. Furthermore it wasn't just Jon dying, it was also the Panopticon being destroyed by the web lighter. And the only reason either of these things happened is because Jon had the Web lighter to begin with.

The Eye had nothing to do with it.

[–]Enough_Surprise2444 0 points1 point  (12 children)

Martin wouldn’t have killed jon without consent obviously and Jon previously killed Jonah which is a big part And besides that’s all irrelevant to who’s ritual it was An avatar of the eye marked by all the fears to become a living archive, it’s the eyes ritual, even if willed by the web in a grander plot

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (11 children)

Why is it the Eyes ritual just because it involved an avatar of The Eye? Also sure Jon consented to it but he didn't do it directly so it didnt have anything to do with him. And killing Jonah just made him pupil of the eye, which is the only thing we know for a fact the Eye actually wanted.

[–]Enough_Surprise2444 0 points1 point  (10 children)

It doesn’t just involve an avatar of the eye it is based entirely around one Of course the eyes ritual would involve an avatar of the eye The world contorts itself to suit the eyes needs The horror is flushed out by the destruction of the pupil and the panopticon The world could be ended by the decision of the pupil in the eye

If it were up to the web a ritual would never happen the web doesn’t want a ritual because it means all the fears will die out when everyone dies out But a ritual by the eye was going to happen so the web sought to manipulate it so that it could use THE EYES RITUAL to escape to another world

The web is the most important entity in the series sure But the ritual is that of the eyes

But in my opinion the end is the in universe most important because the end is inevitable

[–]SorchaSublime[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Ok, heres a better question I guess.

Would the Eyes ritual have ever succeeded without the Webs involvement?

and, follow up,

Could the Web have accomplished its goals with the "Eyes ritual" by manipulating another power, if it had to?

I'd say the answer for those questions are "No" and "Yes" when for it to have been the Eyes ritual in any meaningful sense the answers would need to be "Yes" and "No" respectively.

[–]Oklahom0The Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a couple reasons. One thing is that the tapes haven't been there since the beginning. This is a ritual that has been building power for 2 centuries. I had made a list of all the episodes in chronological order, and it seems that the first tape that Gertrude made (that we listened to) was shortly before Jon was marked by the Leitner.

​

So, this centuries-long ritual was inevitably hijacked by the Web, because that's just what the Web does. I think Anabelle even stated that the Web knew one of the powers would succeed eventually and that the next goal would be escape.

[–]NoneHundredAndNone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because it clearly wasn’t?

If anything moving to a new universe was. But the Web did not win when the Eye won.

[–]amphigory_errorThe Lonely 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the Watcher's Crown was the Eye's ritual.

Whatever we're calling that thing where all the entities were bound to Jon's voice through the tapes and dragged through a hole in the world to the next universe(s), that was the Web's ritual.